What are Occluders?

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What are Occluders?

Post by TNaismith on Tue 30 Mar 2010, 3:31 am

Was wondering what exactly does occluders do in the editor for Savage? I've seen/heard similar concepts being applied to other map-making programs, and was wondering what are they for, how do they work, and why is it recommended to have them?

Also, do VIS points/sectors (if you know what it is) work in the same way as occluders?

Seems like you lot in the map section might know. =D

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Re: What are Occluders?

Post by DeoX on Tue 30 Mar 2010, 11:46 am

Objects that are on the other side of occluders are deactivated. This boosts performance significantly. Savage can only regonize eight nearest occluders so it's not wise to spam them everywhere.

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Re: What are Occluders?

Post by Dino Exp. on Thu 01 Apr 2010, 6:22 pm

Arent occluders those things the eye doctor (or the very dificult word: ophthalmologist o_O) puts in front of your eyes when u need get ur eyes tested? U know, the grey covers they put on those plastic glasses to test ur eyes induvidually...

I dunno if it has anything to with map making Very Happy

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Re: What are Occluders?

Post by Aneurysm on Mon 21 Jun 2010, 4:00 am

Dino Exp. wrote:Arent occluders those things the eye doctor (or the very dificult word: ophthalmologist o_O) puts in front of your eyes when u need get ur eyes tested? U know, the grey covers they put on those plastic glasses to test ur eyes induvidually...

I dunno if it has anything to with map making Very Happy

Hi guys,

I thought I would come and check out your forums and maybe shed a little light on the situation for you.

Firstly yes the thing your doctor uses to cover your eye is also considered an occluder. Though the word itself isn't correct English. To "occlude" something in English means to block out or prevent sight of.

Therefore occluders are like invisible props that prevent any of the props and or terrain behind them from being rendered by the game engine. It is really important when placing occluders that you do a few things.

1. Place them through the centre of a hill or prop (do not box all 4 corners with occluders as this increases the work load of the engine, without actually improving the area you are occluding).

2. Make sure that they do not poke out of any hills or props that you have them hidden in. Any area of an occluder that shows outside the terrain you are hiding it in (in the editor it shows up as pink) will effectively block the view of someone standing behind it.

3. Place as few as possible while still covering all major areas. As Deox rightly pointed out, the engine only accounts for the 8 occluders nearest to your client. Therefore it is important to use big occluders over large areas rather than lots of little ones. Every area you can save on occluders means less stress on the engine.

TNaismith,

To address your question on whether they are the same as VIS points/sectors. I am not familiar with those terms as far as gaming is concerned. However if the word sector is any indication, it sounds like it is a way of breaking the map down into smaller render able parts which is probably more akin to far clipping. Savage uses far clipping on maps, set by the map maker, the value set, limits the furthest vision of the player by not rendering past that point. For example, the far clip value for eden2 is 2600 which means that if there was a weapon with a scope long enough, you would see a blank white wall at that point. Coincidently fog is an environmental setting that helps mask the obvious cut off mark of a far clip.

I hope this has made it all a little clearer. If you want to see how occluders work. I would recommend opening up one of my maps in the editor. If anyone ever has any questions at all about map making or the editor, please feel free to leave me a pm on the Newerth forums. I am always more than happy to help enthusiastic mappers to produce the best that they are capable of.

Ane.
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Re: What are Occluders?

Post by DieOrFail on Mon 21 Jun 2010, 4:41 am

Wow, thank you very much! Smile
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Re: What are Occluders?

Post by TNaismith on Mon 21 Jun 2010, 3:37 pm

Aneurysm wrote:Therefore occluders are like invisible props that prevent any of the props and or terrain behind them from being rendered by the game engine. It is really important when placing occluders that you do a few things.

1. Place them through the centre of a hill or prop (do not box all 4 corners with occluders as this increases the work load of the engine, without actually improving the area you are occluding).

2. Make sure that they do not poke out of any hills or props that you have them hidden in. Any area of an occluder that shows outside the terrain you are hiding it in (in the editor it shows up as pink) will effectively block the view of someone standing behind it.

3. Place as few as possible while still covering all major areas. As Deox rightly pointed out, the engine only accounts for the 8 occluders nearest to your client. Therefore it is important to use big occluders over large areas rather than lots of little ones. Every area you can save on occluders means less stress on the engine.

I see, so they basically are, in essence, a way to 'cut' parts of the map from being rendered by each player's computer, improving performance. I had watched a tutorial on Newerth awhile back from someone showing how to use the Map Editor (Can't remember where or who it was by), but I saw them showing about 2 minutes of placing occluders, and so I was curious. I don't actually make maps in Savage itself, but I've had experience with other map editing programs for other game engines I've played, and the concept of 'occluders' have arisen there too. Good stuff to know in general.

For the VIS points/sectors, I'm not completely sure what they are myself, but I do believe what you mentioned about it seems a logical explanation. It is a mapping concept used in more advanced game/mapping program software. At it's simplest, I know for sure that it has to do with 'making maps run faster' on client computers, and since I do dabble in mapping for other games from time to time, I was interested in learning that. =) I'm quite confident it is good for any Savage player interested in mapping to know too. So thanks for taking the time to head on over and explain. =)

We have a few mappers here in the TH community, although a good number of them aren't super active at the moment (exams, real life, and summer are probably the culprits here xD). If they do come back again this stuff will be a great resource for them to use if needed. ^^

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Re: What are Occluders?

Post by Aneurysm on Mon 21 Jun 2010, 4:50 pm

TNaismith wrote:
Aneurysm wrote:Therefore occluders are like invisible props that prevent any of the props and or terrain behind them from being rendered by the game engine. It is really important when placing occluders that you do a few things.

1. Place them through the centre of a hill or prop (do not box all 4 corners with occluders as this increases the work load of the engine, without actually improving the area you are occluding).

2. Make sure that they do not poke out of any hills or props that you have them hidden in. Any area of an occluder that shows outside the terrain you are hiding it in (in the editor it shows up as pink) will effectively block the view of someone standing behind it.

3. Place as few as possible while still covering all major areas. As Deox rightly pointed out, the engine only accounts for the 8 occluders nearest to your client. Therefore it is important to use big occluders over large areas rather than lots of little ones. Every area you can save on occluders means less stress on the engine.

I see, so they basically are, in essence, a way to 'cut' parts of the map from being rendered by each player's computer, improving performance. I had watched a tutorial on Newerth awhile back from someone showing how to use the Map Editor (Can't remember where or who it was by), but I saw them showing about 2 minutes of placing occluders, and so I was curious. I don't actually make maps in Savage itself, but I've had experience with other map editing programs for other game engines I've played, and the concept of 'occluders' have arisen there too. Good stuff to know in general.

For the VIS points/sectors, I'm not completely sure what they are myself, but I do believe what you mentioned about it seems a logical explanation. It is a mapping concept used in more advanced game/mapping program software. At it's simplest, I know for sure that it has to do with 'making maps run faster' on client computers, and since I do dabble in mapping for other games from time to time, I was interested in learning that. =) I'm quite confident it is good for any Savage player interested in mapping to know too. So thanks for taking the time to head on over and explain. =)

We have a few mappers here in the TH community, although a good number of them aren't super active at the moment (exams, real life, and summer are probably the culprits here xD). If they do come back again this stuff will be a great resource for them to use if needed. ^^


You obviously have a keen eye for aesthetics, and have mapping experience on other games. Why not try your hand at mapping in Savage as well?
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Re: What are Occluders?

Post by TNaismith on Mon 21 Jun 2010, 7:34 pm

In-game tactical, skill, and mechanics knowledge. To create maps you need to understand those concepts extremely well, you need to have the experience of rushes at unfair choke points, you have to know inside and out the flaws and known exploits of maps due to poor mapping, and you generally have to be....a grizzled and experienced veteran to make good maps.

I'm a perfectionist to the core, and while I do enjoy looking more at the aesthetics (visual beauty) of things, especially in Savage, that doesn't translate into strong mapping skills -- unless I was aiming just to create maps that look nice, but have horrible gameplay. xD

Though come to think of it, maybe I'll just fool around creating my own maps just so I can zoom around alone and take fun screenshots of the environment, instead of creating it for the purpose to be played. I may just try that, now that I think about it. xD

I assure you though, it is my strong opinion to leave the realm of serious mapping (aka, making maps for professional clanwars, NSL, PUG Cups...etc) to the...well, professionals. But appreciate the suggestion, I do. =)

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Re: What are Occluders?

Post by Envy on Tue 22 Jun 2010, 11:38 pm

I see now. Wow, I didn't all this stuff was happening while I was fluxing a scavenger.
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